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Myles Tankle - theatre maker and change management professional | S1E2

September 22, 2021

Myles Tankle - theatre maker and change management professional | S1E2
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In this episode: What Myles and Danu both learned working at Apple that they still use today. What being a medical role play actor entails. What’s involved in transitioning a large network of cemeteries back to the office after remote working during the pandemic. What theatre, motion capture and change management have in common.  How we learn to deal with emotion in the workplace and in the way we design learning experiences.

About the Guest: Myles Tankle is a theatre maker, performance capture actor, facilitator and change management professional based in Melbourne, Australia. He is Vice-President of TBC Theatre, a collective of arts professionals producing bold theatre productions and audience immersions with a focus on audience experience. [Myles' LinkedIn]

Recorded 14 September 2021

Oops!: The audio levels are a bit skewy here and there (Danu is still learning how to record properly!) Myles misremembers his website address - it's tbctheatre.com. Danu misremembers a quote from Kierkegaard, who says “life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards”. (Heidegger talks instead about a sense of being thrown into the world)

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About the Host: Danu has been thinking hard about education, technology and society for 30 years. His ambition is to start a company that offers holistic learner-first experiences that set the soul on fire. He is based in Auckland, NZ and is currently working as a consultant on research information systems, academic performance and games for education. [Danu's LinkedIn]

Music: Kleptotonic Swing by Tri-Tachyon (Used under CC-BY-NC license)

Transcript
Danu Poyner:

You're listening to the still curious podcast with me Danu Poyner. My guest today is miles tangle, who is a theatre maker performance capture actor, facilitator and change management professional based in Melbourne, Australia. miles not only leads a very fascinating and versatile life, he's also one of the nicest human beings you'll ever meet. I met miles and we were both working at Apple A long time ago now, where he was one of the creative trainers. In today's episode, we talk about that experience, and what we both learned at Apple that we still use today, we discuss where a life of curiosity has led miles, or being a medical roleplay actor entails what's involved in transitioning a large network of cemeteries back to the office after remote working during the pandemic, and what theater, motion capture and change management have in common. Myles also has some fairly deep observations about how we learn to deal with emotion in the workplace. And in the way we design learning experiences. It was a delightful conversation that went to some pretty surprising places. I hope you enjoy it, too. It's miles tangled coming up right up at the music break on today's episode of The still curious podcast. Hi, miles. And thank you so much for making the time and coming on the podcast. How is Melbourne in the UK? I didn't know what kind of lockdown Limbo you're in these days. But it must have been tough. For the last little while.

Myles Tankle:

I look, consider it's a bit of a funny one. Had you asked me before we went into lockdown six, I was doing okay. But this one, I'll be honest with you, it's it's been a bit challenging with this lockdown. As you know, everybody's feeling that once you've had that time to have to worry about that hold that level of stress in your head in your heart. Have all of the things rolling around you. You know, it does take its toll. But right now knock on wood family is happy and healthy. So. So it's all we need to worry about.

Danu Poyner:

Yeah, exactly. Very glad to hear that. You've got that upbeat attitude that I remember, and haven't changed too much. No, not at all. Anyway, thank you for coming on. This morning. I want to I've got a lot of questions for you. And I'm not sure how many we'll get to but I'm just going to dive straight in if that's okay. And say on your LinkedIn, you describe yourself as a change management, performance capture actor, facilitator, trainer, educator and theatre maker, which is quite a really interesting mix of things. Is there? Is there a thread that ties that together? How do you how do you story that?

Myles Tankle:

That's a house thinking about that when you when you pose the questions before and how to read around them. How do I story it? I guess if I'm going to boil it down to a self narrative. there was all this here's a story about her. Okay, when I first went to drama school, my first attempt when I was just straight out of high school, the man who ran the school Mary unitec, Performing Arts in New Zealand. We had a whole weekend of performance stuff and working with scenes and meeting all these people. And I was very nervous and very young and, and felt quite out of my depth. But I'll never forget a moment that that that that happened at that point there we were running through the scene. And I was, as I said, 17 or something, working with the 26 year old about a scene where a husband and wife are dealing with depression. The father is thing that I could ever, ever have hoped to imagine myself doing at 17 with a level of emotional maturity that what is a 17 year old? Let's be honest from from that perspective. 17 year old do actually know quite a lot. Maybe not maybe not within that kind of context, right. But he pulled me aside after multiple attempts of trying to find the emotional resonance and where the scene landed and working with this other person under the stress of an audition weekend, and I'll never forget the way that he said it. I can't remember the word specifically. But he stopped us, pulled me aside and looked very, very deeply into me and said is what the scene is about his connection and the way in which he said that word and inferred that level of connection between not just me in the scene partner, but the character and the other character what was actually happening, trying to find the root of that particular moment in time between two people the relation of that was some thing that really, really stuck with me. And I've never forgotten. As I said, I can't remember the words. But the feeling that he managed to transpose onto me in that time was very, very effective. So when I think about that self narrative of what all of those different titles mean, and all the experience that I've garnered through these different forms of engagement with other people, it is ultimately about that it's about connection. You know, there's a lot of quotes out there like Maya Angelou is, I think it's Maya Angelou is quoted, forgive me if I'm wrong, I'll have to fact check it. But you know, that whole thing about you know, people don't remember what you say, people remember what? You make them feel something to that. Yeah, I

Danu Poyner:

was I was that was coming to me while you were telling the story, actually, that quote, so it is my enjoy. Yeah.

Myles Tankle:

Yeah. Okay, great. Okay, cracking start so far. So that that element of connection is certainly something that ties together in my mind those what could be seemingly disparate pieces of work. But it is about connection. And, you know, from an educative point of view, you know, you're connecting dots between knowledge sets, sure, you can kind of go down that very academic route of saying, Well, here's all the different schema and ontologies and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But you're really helping people connect different ideas together. In the theatrical world, you're working to connect stories, feelings, ideas, experience, more than anything else. And similar and change management, change management. Well, maybe in a digital transformation sector gets very technical. Right now, I'm dealing with databases and tables, and all sorts of weird acronyms. But effectively, there's people on either end of that implementation, and you've got to connect one to the other in a way that is humane, maybe for lack of a better word.

Danu Poyner:

Yeah, fantastic. Ray, you said a few interesting things I want to dig into there, if that's okay. But this idea of connection that ties everything together is really interesting. I'm curious, is that a recent realization that you've had about, about what ties things together? Or is connection, something that you have intentionally pursued in all of your work in in a conscious way? Since that, since that moment, when you were 17?

Myles Tankle:

Yes, or no, I think there's a level of and consciousness, this, for lack of a better term around that, you know, if you're a people person, whether you might align to be an introvert, extrovert, whatever those labels mean, you know, some people like people, and some people find that interaction difficult, odd. I've never felt that interaction difficult. I've always been quite, I guess, gifted in a way of being able to make friends and talk to people and understand people, I like to think so relatively easily. That's also come from my experience of migrating countries twice, you know, and having to work and understand other people's cultural differences and the differences in language and connotations that certain words may have in a different place, you know, that, that also helps realign a way of approaching another person or a set of people in a way that presents, I guess, a level of approachability and acceptability in dealing with other people rather than just coming to it and going well, no, that's different. So therefore, I must speak to you in a different way. Like, that doesn't really carry a lot of positivity when coming to work with people. So that level of connection, I think, you know, from our own personal perspective, as well as a professional perspective is very, very important. So I think, to answer your question, yes or no?

Danu Poyner:

Yeah, thank you. I'm another question off the back of that, then I suppose is, was you talked about being in that scene? And when you were 17? was acting? The wife Plan A for you? Are you Did you have a plan? a? Are you still on plan? a? How is that all panned out?

Myles Tankle:

I love how you also plan a plan B. No. I don't have a plan a plan B. No, look, I mean to be to be serious, I think. Acting certainly was the driving passion. When I left South Africa, and I went to New Zealand, and I landed in New Zealand at 14 turning 15. Middle of high school. I've had I had previously had some experience in the performing arts, not a lot. My family. My father's side of the feminist Africa is very sports orientated. My mother's side did have a level of arts integrated into the family. But South Africa at that point in time, and these were I wasn't South Africa, the arts weren't a viable option. Not, you know, like, it wasn't something that was celebrated. If you were a hobbyist, Greg, but if you were thinking about doing it professionally, that wasn't part of I guess that that space of where I came from, however, moving to New Zealand, which was, and is artistically much more open, even though it's a smaller country, you know, I landed in school, went to a drama class, because my mom was like, and she is actually an actress before she had me which then I stopped her from doing that, and, you know, long story, we'll get into another time, perhaps, landed in New Zealand, and from the very first drama class, that just opened up a whole new world to me. And whilst it wasn't on my radar as a plan up until about my last year of school, when I was like, Well, I don't really know what else I'm going to do. And I seem to be pretty good at this. And people respond to me in the space. And I really enjoyed, in fact, I do harder work in this space that, you know, academically counts for far less than anything else. But yet, I'm willing to put in more hours. Maybe I'll do that. Then I had some I had a couple of people in my drama teacher and another director in order, who was a friend of hers that said, maybe you should think about it. So I did. And I went, and I tried, and I've got in on my second attempt. And you know what, I've never regretted it. It's, I think, a training in theatre, which encompasses so much of the human experience was a vital, vital, vital foundation for any and all of the work that I've done since that time, whether it's been in the art or whether it's been outside of the arts. Yeah, I guess it's, you know, looking back retrospectively, that plan A turned into Plan B turned into Plan C, but I've been very fortunate in the way that those decisions have flowed to the point where I am now working primarily in change management, which is the accumulation of all of those different skills.

Danu Poyner:

Yeah, fantastic. Well, that's a good opportunity, then to maybe ask you about change management. I've done a little bit of work in this space myself, but maybe, how would you explain what change management is to 10 year old miles

Myles Tankle:

to a 10 year old? Okay, so change management is kind of like, you're 10 years old, you're about to move to a new school. And, you know, you could either go just like, rock up at the new school and deal with everything that comes your way. And you're like, I don't know how this makes me feel. And these people, I don't know who they are and stuff. Whereas change management would say, well, maybe about a month away from moving to a new school, let's talk about, so you're going to the school, this is what it looks like. Maybe we'll go take a look around the grounds and maybe meet some of the teachers, what do you think about that word view? Right? Well, once we've done that, talk to me about your feelings. Talk to me about what your thoughts are. All right. Now, we got to get your books. Now we're going to get you in a form. Let's take you through the process. And when we finally land on that first day of school, you should ideally know where you're going. know who you need to talk to know what's going to happen on the day? And then no past that first day, what are the things that you're going to be finding along the journey? And are you ready to do that?

Danu Poyner:

Yeah, I think that's a really good explanation is it's Can you maybe share an example of of a sort of change management project, you've worked on what that looks like in in practice.

Myles Tankle:

It's a lot messier than that. The last one, I think, before I moved, as I've just started working for the Australian energy market operator in the energy sector now, but before that, I was working in a very interesting organization, the greater metropolitan cemeteries trust in Melbourne, which looked after about 19 to 19 sites. And actually, there's a couple of other Greenfield sites that hadn't been developed just yet. But a lot of this cemetery sites in metropolitan Melbourne, north, east and west. And last year, particularly last year, we were dealing obviously, with the pandemic, which so many of us have been dealing with, and that whole thing of well, who's essential, who's non essential? What happens when people start coming back to the office, how we dealt with that infection management control, and the Occupational Health and Safety? What does all of that look like? So I was working on the return to Office project, which the greater metropolitan cemeteries trust or gmct doesn't have a huge amount of employees is about 200, and something employees across all the 19 different sites. But, you know, a good bulk of the organization 40% is off the space, whereas the remaining 60% or so works out on site, either in the horticultural space and will vary or operate very well operation space. So for them, you know, they were able to maintain a lot of the regulatory sort of structural things that keep people safe, but the other space, you've got to think about that. So that level of change management of trying to understand You know, and it was on two things, right? It was getting people back into the office, you can sit here 1.5 meters away, or whatever the distances is, how big are the desks? Where does everybody said? Do we need to move people around? If you're moving, which space you moving to? Which office you moving from? Can we look at other sites that give us the possibility of housing people? Do we have the technological infrastructure there to make sure that that all holds itself? Well together, and then moving all those different pieces. But off the back of that, at that particular time was also the cultural shift of Well, we're going from nine to five, to now working in hybrid? And how do we manage that change of mindset from working from nine to five to work into a hybrid mentality? How do we have to bring people through that decision making process? How does the CEO make that decision? How does the board of the board make that decision? How does it all work? And obviously, we're not the only organization or we're the only organization making those changes or looking to make those changes. But there was a process of going out of the staff going out to the management teams trying to understand what each perspectives were looking like, analyzing that information, presenting that back to the executive team, for them to start making more informed decisions, working very closely with the ICT team working very closely with the occupational health and safety team. And with all of that, we're trying to just understand what it was that we were trying to do from a very, very murky, how do we do this position, we managed to kind of lay down some good groundwork to make sure that our staff could feel comfortable coming back into the office, understanding what the office looked like, as well as their bigger change. You know, moving to a hybrid works, workplace, that was able to keep up with the demand, and make sure that there were still people on the ground to have families come to visit and understand what options they have available to them. If they wanted to have a loved one interred in, in a grave, or if they were looking for another option, all of those operational considerations were taken into account. So still going, Yeah, it's

Danu Poyner:

still unfolding? For sure. It is, it is very messy, and sort of ripe for that humane pneus. And bringing in the whole of human experience. There's a lot in that. And so I guess I'm curious, you know, change management, has its own body of knowledge and practices and theoretical models and things. How much do you draw on that in the change management work? And how much do you draw on the things that you've learned from other parts of your life out of things that you've done?

Myles Tankle:

That's a really great question. I can only speak to the level of experience that I have, I'm about three years into this role and change management. So without having a formal education, I didn't go through university learn change management. I've since since you know, learn some of those models, like adkar, for example, which is a really, really big framework are really well known and respected framework, as well as looking into some agile ways of working through another organization that I've done some training within some other practitioners that I've, I've had an opportunity to learn from. Look, I'd say that frameworks absolutely have their place. And those those structural documented ways of working, really make change management's a very neat, ongoing process to work from. And when you do get stuck with things where you kind of go, Well, I need to analyze this change. And what does this all mean, you have a way of going back to something that is your technique, you know, if I'm going to draw a parallel to Working in the Theatre, those frameworks are like your technique that you learn how to come to a stage and how to deliver a presentation or a scene or something like that. What it doesn't necessarily do is fill in the blanks, you know, like, you can still follow a framework to an absolute tee, I could say, well, this team has the awareness, we've checked off the desire, we know that there's knowledge, or we've given them the opportunity to to, to work up the ability, and then we've got a reinforcement plan great. Doesn't mean that the change is going to be successful. Right? Like it means that you've checked all that, you know, you dotted all the i's and crossed all the T's. But what about the people in the middle of that? Yeah, there's what's, you know, how do you deal with resistance? How do you reinforce something as a carrot? Or is it stick? You know, you need to have an understanding of the people in between those things. So I think that anything that you can bring, you know, from a prior place, like funnily enough, talking about our shared experience of working at Apple, I love Kahoot come to that. Yeah, hold on to that. And I can't remember it was a long, long time since we've worked together then I don't know whether or not we were using Cahoots as a way of having team download meetings and stuff. You may have been able to do that.

Danu Poyner:

I remember daily down I'm not sure I remember Cahoots,

Myles Tankle:

okay? Well, at some point someone shifted over to using Cahoots in those downloads. And it just took off like wildfire. And out of all of the things I've taken from Apple Kahoot is one of those things, which is this, if anybody doesn't know what it is, it's an online platform where people can interact with a quiz or with a presentation by their phones, right? This is really fun. It's silly, it's fun, you can use it for a million things. But tools and ideas brought from other places, that's what fills in the gaps, experience fills in those gaps. And whilst experience is built upon itself might not always have it. What's nice about bringing things from other areas or taking risks with other ideas that come from different domains, is that that knowledge or that experience, does create some sort of reaction in the people that you're attempting that with. And from that, you can gain a tremendous amount of information and from that information that helps you make those decisions as to what your frameworks need to drive towards. So that so it's a very multi leveled approach, I think when it comes to any field or domain of knowledge, where you can insert something that's just a little bit different, that breaks the mold somewhat.

Danu Poyner:

Yeah, I'm really fascinated in this borrowing from different domains, and kind of being like a gleeful interloper across all of these domains, because it in my experience, it certainly adds to do everything. And I think you've got a nice comment on your, on your LinkedIn about about that as well, I believe it any learning is learning that will someday be used to positive effect. So I thought that was a really nice thing to say about that. And it's interesting, you know, you say you haven't gone through a formal process, that I don't know if it's right to call it a tension between formal and informal learning. And knowledge is really interesting to get into as well. But maybe, you know, we'll jump around a bit. You mentioned apple. So let's, let's talk about actual. So I think we probably I was working at about 10 years ago. And I remember you were a creative trainer there. And that's because we know each other, and I remember, the thing I remember about the creatives is always walking past and seeing and standing hands behind their backs. And I wondered, first of all, if you tell me a little bit about about that method, and what the idea was of that

Myles Tankle:

craziness, yeah. So what was nice about Apple was that it was my first introduction into adult learning theory. And what it is that separates learning for adults, as it does for children, teenagers, or people of different ages. But that particular technique that you're mentioning, there was what we called lead learning out, which was a way of saying, really get the other person to drive their own learning, and really be not too much of a bystander, but a conduit for their learning. Don't touch the keyboard, don't touch the mouse, don't say all that little spot on the screen. No, no, you must move your finger there, no click that click that, you know, like, the way of instructing somebody in that way to guide them to their own learning was what made that that role really special, particularly in the context of the way that we used to run that program of work, one to one, where you would spend and build relationships with learners that would come in for all sorts of reasons. You know, some people just wanted to come into the conversation, which you can pick up pretty quickly. And some people had a really strong agenda of things that they wanted to learn to be able to, you know, upskill themselves pretty quickly, whether professionally or personally. But Lee learning out was a wonderful technique of being able to use vocal cues to guide people's attention around a screen in and around a device to get to their overall workflow that they needed to understand. Which was also a pretty great way of kind of self educating ourselves when we didn't know all of the answers, because what was great about Apple, and you remember, this was that whole sort of phrase of? I don't know, let's find out. I used that. So that was like, that was the best thing since sliced bread man like, because often we don't, and I find that particularly now working as, you know, effectively a contractor at the moment. But I find that that tension of working within an organization or working in a project team outside of an organization, that's a really strong thing, you know, you have your personal and your professional identity, which you've come to your work with. And, you know, it's it's not inferred and people take a lot of pains these days to say this, but there is that feeling. I must know, I'm this job when I must know what I'm doing. which is not the case always. And you know, great leaders, in my opinion, are the people that kind of say, let's let's work it out. You know, like, we don't know, let's work it out. And that's what I think Apple really trained IT staff to do really well, is take the pressure off anybody that was working on the sales floor to working in the genius room to working in the creative space was, we don't know the answers to everything. You know? And if you don't know what you don't know, then there's ways of finding that out. Yeah, but be honest about it. Because that creates a level of vulnerability and empathy, that creates a further connection. And from that connection, you're able to take a bit more time to really work out and tailor the solution for the customer or for whoever is you're talking to.

Danu Poyner:

Yeah, yeah. I want to dig into that a little bit more, if that's okay, because it's so fascinating. You mentioned that sense of empathy that you generate. And, and it's okay to not know things, I think that's really important that there's a kind of trust and safety that you have to have earned before that really pays off and works for everyone. And I think some of that is again in the model, but a lot of it's just in the person and the way that you relate to people. So I'm curious, in that one to one setting, you mentioned, you know, straightaway, you've had a few different kinds of people. And you can tell kind of what they want out of the session. I really interested to, to hear you know, what, over those hundreds of interactions you've had, what do you vary? And what do you keep the same? And what is it that you notice about someone coming in that tells you how you need to improvise that kind of situation this time?

Myles Tankle:

It's a great question. There's a lot to unpack there. Well, since we're talking about frameworks, right, you start off with your framework, and you work to internalize that. So we had a set of steps within Apple called the apple steps of service, which was modified for whatever position, right? Remember that all those wonderful training sessions on that which, actually, outside of Apple, it's become very, very useful, because a lot of interactions will normally follow that from a sales or customer interaction scenario, right? So we'd follow that up that Apple step of service, and, you know, approach with a warm welcome, position, what you're looking to work with the customer on, probe, listen, you know, all of that sort of stuff that you kind of internalize and follow off with. But over the time of working with people from literally from not five years old to 95 years old, in group sessions, and on one to one sessions, the one thing that stuck out to me, what I always looked for, was whether the person would ask questions, did they come to the session and go, I need to know x, y, and Zed? Did they have a time box around it? Were they stressed about it? Or did they come to that session? And go, I've got a whole bunch of questions. Here's my question. Oh, here's another question. Oh, here's another question. So in effect to boil that down, I would be looking for is this person naturally curious? Do they want to learn? And that would then shape the entire interaction?

Danu Poyner:

Well, that's like the theme of this podcast or something, isn't it? What I needed I put in a sound effect there. And everyone mentioned, it's curiosity. I'll put out it in post. So of all those interactions, and what proportion of people would you say, did have that curiosity, and we're coming to it from that place.

Myles Tankle:

I think by the very nature of it being generally a retail environment, with a learning service thrown in there for good measure, the majority of people that were coming there were coming for their own personal curiosity, right, they were all coming to learn something because they identified that there was something that they needed. Whereas working in a more technical environment in a business sense, you know, people need to know things because they need to know how to do a job. So the very instance of coming to learning in that sense is ultimately different. And the way that we approach learning in that sense is quite different. But certainly working in Apple, a lot of people came, I'd say, Good. And this is my my personal perspective, Matt, good 85 to 90% of the people that are interacted with over that time, we're interested in learning something how their their critical faculties faculties were aligned, how their you know, their motives really aligned with learning something, whatever they experience in their previous in their private life was that infer the way that they learned or took up information, all different, I mean, that's all horses for courses, right. But a lot of people wanted to learn how to use their new phone, their iPad, their MacBook their You know, remote control? I don't know. So that made it infinitely easier.

Danu Poyner:

Yeah. Yeah. What's the? What's the weirdest or most surprising kind of interaction you had? in that in that setting? is there is there a story that you go to that you remember

Myles Tankle:

this, I enter this most surprising? Well, it is. But that's, that's a very, very different interaction, I think with this person who came out of who had a very strong while we were setting up a device effectively, and she she shared with me something that a big event that had happened in her life where she had a level of emotional abuse from a person who has taken coercive control over her and how she escaped that. So I've met her at the tail end of that interaction and through setting up her phone, which we were trying to restore her photos, right, which took about an hour and a half. And somehow we built this rapport, and she told me all of this, this amazing story, that's certainly something that took me by surprise that somebody would share with me such an intimate and deeply held experience. People are incredible.

Danu Poyner:

Yeah, there's something about that environment that when you have that vulnerability, you get a lot of intimate things come out of that. Really kind of not surprised you mentioned that as your as your story. It's, I had a similar experience to those at the back in the repair room. And there were some really difficult conversations there with people who's you know, had, remembering one lady who lost her her entire hard drive, which had all the photos of her daughter who had recently passed away, and we couldn't recover it. And it was just really intense kind of stuff. And there's something about that environment where people do share really intimate, intimate things about about what they're doing in their lives. And sort of how do you how do you deal with that? And is that a, just a part of that humaneness? And that empathy that you bring to those to those interactions?

Myles Tankle:

That's a tough one. Look, I mean, you know, not many workplaces train people to deal with grief. You know, that there aren't that many officers. I mean, like, yeah, of course, you know, we've got Are you okay, day, and there's other, you know, things that are Mental Health First Aid, which is now coming more to the fore around the world with how people deal with, you know, impacts of mental and emotional health. But, you know, thinking back to where we work, man, like, no one trained us for grief. No one, no one taught us how to deal with, you know, you get taught from an empathic point of view to deal with anger, and frustration, is an overriding human emotion. But I had a similar thing I remember, like years ago, you know, maybe three or four years into the job, I was working on the cash register, it was a busy day, we had people lined out the door, trying to deal with as much as possible before was getting this Russian and this woman who happens on you knows what she was dealing with, shouted at me, two or three people back going, I need to get this now because my mother is dying of cancer. And if she dies, it's your fault. In front of a whole bunch of other people and, you know, as a person in their 20s, how do you deal with that level of grief and anger and frustration that's directed at you? It's got nothing to do with you. You know, how do you deal with that? Who teaches you how to deal with that? You know, we're not, we're not necessarily trained to be able to understand those things. No matter how much empathy were taught in the workplace for customer scenarios, that human experience and that connection, is ultimately the thing that drives all of those different interactions. And you know, you you can develop it, but where do you learn it from?

Danu Poyner:

Well, that's a good question, Mark, because I think you have a fair bit of experience with grief in some of your roles. You mentioned that that cemeteries work, which has got to throw up some interesting scenarios. And also, you've spent some time, a fair bit of time, I think, as a medical roleplay. Actor. Is there a grief theme in that work as well? Could you tell us a little bit about what that is, and what's involved in being a medical roleplay actor? And then I want to ask you, like, Where, where do you learn how to deal with grief? Where have you learned?

Myles Tankle:

I don't know what a straight answer to that is like this comes down to building upon experience, doesn't it? But you know, when you go through your own personal grief, it's different to do with somebody else's grief, I think that's, you know, patience and space and silence has a lot to play in that. And you know, don't always get it right. You know, this personal, personal experiences grief wise with, I certainly haven't caught it right, and may never get it right. But you know, when other people are experiencing something, you have to acknowledge the feeling, you have to acknowledge the feeling to not acknowledge it is to miss the elephant in the room. And no matter how uncomfortable it may be, we've all felt that feeling before. And I think that's the, you know, to be maybe a bit flippant about it, I think that's where the training and performing arts and theater has come from Is that you, you spend an inordinate amount of time learning how to not become somebody else, I think that's probably a fallacy. You're learning to be come acquainted with that part of yourself that needs to play that role. And whenever an actor or a theatre person talks about their truth, don't get me started on the words that we use to describe it. But when I think when somebody talks about finding their truth, it's not about finding the character, the character is a manifestation of the way that that person discovers in themselves. That part that touches the words that a playwright has written. And so is the same with empathy, right? If I know that somebody in front of me is going through something, and I can put myself in the position of understanding some part of my life that is similar, that brings us together. I don't have to cry with them, but to be there and be comfortable in that space with them. Because I know that space, that's very important. And that gives that person that ability to go by I'm not here by myself, there's somebody else that knows. And that's that's what a lot of the time, what we're looking for is that connection, that that understanding that we're not alone. don't always get it right. might not always get the right note for the right person. But I think that's where it sits in that space. Yeah.

Danu Poyner:

That connection, again, is really important. It's funny, you mentioned, acknowledging that, that feeling, it's probably the two things I use from Apple in my life, day to day is, I don't know, let's find out together and acknowledge align and assure, which is really quite powerful. You can't even in change management, you can't get anywhere with someone until you kind of acknowledge why they're there and what they're bringing to that conversation and, and that that's real for them. So, yeah, that's it's all kind of connected.

Myles Tankle:

Yes. 100% of medical roleplay. Coming back to us, I think we got off into a tangent. So too good.

Danu Poyner:

It's all tangents. If you're listening to this, this podcast is all tangents. So

Myles Tankle:

we should probably maybe change the name still curious. Yeah. You look, medical role play. That's an interesting field as well, because, you know, again, is supremely important part of our life is our health and our doctors, nurses, technicians, biomed people, are they trained to deal with emotion? Not really not a lot of the time. Some people come and bring their own personal selves to the work. Other people are so intellectually focused on finding the root cause of a particular symptom of the ailment understanding like, incredibly smart people that are focused on doing the work. But the work is with an on people. So medical roleplays away of from an educative educative perspective, working out a structure in their learning, that introduces the people problem into that equation, because heavens knows, we're not straightforward creatures, we're very complex. And we have, you know, ideas that clash at different times in self narratives that are very different to what we presented all of that sort of stuff, right. So working on that type of scenario based training makes a huge difference for the practitioners that might be coming in. Because, you know, it might take them a couple of times to understand what the problem is that they are faced with the person. And if the scenario is a good scenario, and if the actor is a good actor, produce a very realistic environment for a person to say, Well, I'm a third year medical student and now I have to practice delivering bad news to a patient's family. Whatever that scenario is, How often would that third year medical student ever have to interact with the family just yet and be also deliver bad news that could potentially have some really serious impacts and ramifications for the patient's ongoing prognosis. So it presents a very real human problem to that person and can start a lot of thinking and development down that particular line to hopefully make them a better practitioner of medicine.

Danu Poyner:

Yeah, I read this book once about 10 years ago that made a really lasting impression on me, which is about practical wisdom by a guy called Barry Schwartz. And he's talking about the human facing professions, and how much things are governed by rules and guidelines that they, they leave out, introducing the people problem, as you've said, a series giving the example of like a janitor and the the 50 things on the job description of a janitor. And all of them are about, you know, sweep this through this, but none of them have anything to do with people. And yet, the people who actually do those jobs do have often, you know, they're very empathetic. And they they they change the way they do things to to meet the emotional and social needs of the people they're interacting with. So where does that skill that practical wisdom come from? And how can we design he talks about demoralizing work through these kinds of over reliance on rules and procedures? And how can we re moralize work? So you kind of reminded me of that a little bit.

Myles Tankle:

But that's a really interesting tension as well, because, you know, particularly in change management, I've, I've been finding in my time in the role that people need to have certainty. And what gives people certainty of boundaries and rules, which is not too dissimilar from kids, right. But we're all big children. But that in itself is difficult. Because the you can easily go down the path, as you say, of demoralizing people by introducing far too much governance. But yet, that's something that people want, but at the same time, they so don't, it's, it's a very, very taut. You know, why to try and walk? Yes, but then what the answer is, but it's constantly trying to find that balance. I

Danu Poyner:

feel like you're someone who spends a lot of their time in that, in that balance. From from all different things that you do, I'm wondering if you can just put a little bit of detail around the medical roleplay work and explain how one of those scenarios works? What what actually happened? So walk me through it.

Myles Tankle:

Okay, well, look, first of all, I guess it depends on ultimately, what is the purpose of that training? So I've worked in a couple of different skis for Deakin medical school. And that's really just being a function. Right? Whereas going into some other areas where I've worked with minor students, and RMIT students, where there is a level of emotional life that's involved where the Monash one was actually really interesting, because I had to play someone from another culture that didn't have English as a language. And then how does that medical student then come to working with this person who doesn't understand what they're saying, and might be scared and maybe fearful of what is actually happening? Because they're not in an environment they can control? How does that then impacts their role in working with the patient. And that was probably one example of dealing with plus possibly bad news with the language barrier. And that human problem where it was very interesting to run through a framework, yes, the medical student comes in, they introduce themselves, they start to set up a report bedside manner, they've obviously got some news that they need to run through, there's a family member in the room, and depending on what culture we were working with there that has its own inference, as well. How do you deal with that? You know, and then that is assessed by two or three different, you know, older practitioners who are the part of the faculty or might even be invited in. And that assessment criteria is something I wasn't terribly involved with, but would look at obviously, not only the quality of the diagnosis, where the end and what were the decisions that were made or possible route at that point, but also, how did they deal with the people that that can, you know, for the purpose of what that institution is looking for, can alter radically?

Danu Poyner:

What do you think about how effective that is? And what some of the, the outcomes of that exercise are for the people who participated?

Myles Tankle:

Well, the question first is has it been done well, and that's always a challenge, because if the people who are designing the training, don't necessarily believe in the potential reality of those outcomes, then you get a very watered down thing. And I the person to speak to it actually my partner Trudy because she's dealt with us a lot longer. I've only been doing roleplay for about five or six years. She's been doing it for many more in designing, training and working with organizations and I listened to the challenge that she has when she's dealing with other organizations in building training. If people understand what it potentially could lead to, and they're interested in the people problem, you can design something that is very impactful. And you can align with practitioners, both from the medical field as well as from the performance side of it, that have a lot of experience and can create a very strong use of flesh termeer centricity of presence, where, you know, people are very much pulled into the moment and really understand and have a very strong emotional reaction to what's going on, they forget that it's roleplay. And that's ultimately where you want to get to with that sort of stuff, the same as when creating a theatrical production, you want the audience to forget that they're watching the show, you want the illusion of it, to be so overwhelming that it kickstart some sort of emotional reaction. And in very well designed training, that has taken into account, you know, strong outcomes and strong themes of what, you know, at the end goal, we want to get the students to take out of it, you can have some incredibly incisive moments for practitioners where they step out of themselves, and they go, Oh, my gosh, I'd never actually thought about that. And that's the moments, right. And I think coming back to the horse, being still curious. That's the moments that any educator once or any person that's trying to learn something ultimately wants, in my opinion, is that spark of going, Oh, my gosh, two little neurons have connected and there's been a brain explosion.

Danu Poyner:

Yeah, it's like an outbreak of clarity. or something. Yeah.

Myles Tankle:

100%. Yeah. But when it's done badly, and you're only looking at a guy, and well, this person performs a function, we tell them that this is the response that they give, if the practitioner asks, then this, and here are all of the histrionics and got, but they don't actually really believe in what is the purpose of what they're doing. You just don't get the same sort of outcome and orders everything down.

Danu Poyner:

So that you've hit upon the sort of central thing that I'm interested in with all of this, which is how do you design for those kinds of moments, those outbreaks of clarity, when everything is so bound up in such a variety of factors. And yet this, there are things you can do and techniques that can kind of help increase the chances that you'll get those outbreaks of clarity. I'll let that sit for a moment, because I just wanted to say, a couple weeks ago is that a Game Developers Conference, and one of the really interesting talks, there was someone working on narrative design, in these kind of areas of serious games, games for health games for education. And they were working with health professionals on a simulator, which is sort of like the the game interactive version of what you're describing, I guess. And she was saying the same kind of thing about Is it done? Well, it really matters, because one of the obstacles she'd found working with the health practitioners was that they didn't want to include the negative outcomes in the game. The game, you know, games are all about being able to try out different possibilities safely without the real consequences. effort to make it real, but they didn't want to have the bad consequences in there. Because they said, Well, well, that would never happen, the baby would never die. But it was about how how do you come to that space? And how much do you believe in the in the learning design? there? So that really just reminded me of that when you were talking about

Myles Tankle:

100%. And that's, that's the crux of education isn't as you say, it's creating a safe space to learn. And we learn through the success we learn through failure. And, look, I won't get into the whole thing about failure, because there's much smarter people than me, that's a much more accurate things about it. But we are ultimately scared of it. Nobody likes to fail. And very effective people, I think, have a level of comfort with it. But there is that sense of you know, failure does equal learning to be flippant about it. And you mentioned game design as well, when you're playing a game and you know, the avatar doesn't quite make the jump and falls into the pit of the abyss. respond. You've learned something right. And a lot of people may play the game you keep trying until you get the outcome that you want to speak about. And it's really interesting. I did a in the motion capture world I did a job with dementia Australia, where I had to play a character named Ted who was I think it's in his 70s or 80s. Who was Yeah, he was really dealing with quite a high level. of dementia was hospitalized as a result of that and was receiving care. And the whole idea of the game is that for learning nurses or other sorts of practitioners in that space, they were done a VR headset, they would interact with Ted. And they would have various choices with what they were trying to get him to do, whether it was eating this meal, or sitting down for lunch or going for a walk. And we had to record a number of emotional responses based on those type of scenarios. And I guess the nice thing about the game is that if you don't have the right kind of response, Ted would just get he just loses loses Wragge. I get really upset and getting really angry. So you've got that immediate response as you go in that safe space before you actually deal with a real life person? or What can you say? How do you approach them? What's the best way to you know, include yourself in the world so that you get the outcome that you want without making a person's life? More difficult? You know, so that coming back to that intentional gameplay design, when people really do think about it and want to take a person to that space? It can be hugely impactful.

Danu Poyner:

Yeah. That was that was that a fun exercise to do? Your your LinkedIn is so fascinating is you every now and then some notification will pop pop up that says our miles is doing something with cemeteries or miles is doing energy miles is doing motion capture for dementia on now. He's doing capoeira, it's, there's all of this stuff. It's fascinating. You must have a lot of fun.

Myles Tankle:

Yeah, I suppose. So. I like to think so. Look, some some days, it's, you know, I guess, to come back to the point of being still curious, I think that's ultimately, you know, there's there's different areas of your life that take different levels of curiosity to to afford, you know, a cup of water, for me was something that I discovered quite by accident as a physical form of exercise. But it has a rich history that has an incredible level of learning from a martial aspect, a cultural aspect, a song music. It's such a intertwined entity and has so many different layers to it, it can take you years before you really understand. And that can be said of any martial art, or any sort of physical domain or mental domain, it doesn't really matter. But I think, you know, when you touch on something, and you go, Oh, this is cool. I love that feeling. I love that feeling. I really do enjoy that feeling of being a numpty in something and working towards understanding it. There's so many different layers of different times when things land and drop and that excitement of going, Oh, my god that connects Oh, that's so super cool. Like, I never thought I'd be interested in spreadsheets. Like, I find that now I just got off a call this morning before we met with a colleague who was teaching me how to analyze data and the spreadsheet, showing me stuff and I'm losing my mind.

Danu Poyner:

Can't be a good pivot table. Oh, my God.

Myles Tankle:

But at the same time, like how mundane but how exciting, right? Like those things that we find in our daily life that brings us that spark of Oh, my gosh, I didn't know that. I find that as a human experience, that is probably one of my favorite things. As an individual to experience.

Danu Poyner:

Absolutely. Do you think that has to be in you that that that spark? And that curiosity? Is it in everyone? Has people lose it? Have you ever lost your curiosity?

Myles Tankle:

I haven't lost my curiosity. But I've definitely had experiences that have stopped me wanting to learn something. Hmm. You know, and I think that comes down to people as well. If you have somebody that encourages you in an area that is open to that encouragement in that area, then it makes the process a lot easier. But if you come up against somebody that's a naysayer, for whatever reason. And if you're not equipped to understand that that's their issue, not your issue. And we're all in their boat, right? We're all big kids. So like, it doesn't always make sense. Sometimes it does. Sometimes it doesn't. You know, then it can be very difficult to want to progress in something when the encouragement isn't there to help you along. Because learning is not an easy process, right? Like, you know, you can be curious about something, but it can take a long time before you actually understand something. And that in itself, you know, is difficult, because you're not getting that feedback response. It says yes, this is something you should

Danu Poyner:

do. Yeah, it's interesting, given that so much of the way education is presented and marketed is about the outcome of it. And it's very instrumental in that way do this and you will do this. But then if I'm hearing a kind of philosophy emerging from everything you're saying, it's that you don't know The payoff is coming or what it even looks like or so what does that mean for designing education?

Myles Tankle:

Yeah, percent? What does it mean? And I guess it's ultimately it's, you know, what are you designing for? Are you designing for people to go into the workplace? And is that your overriding theory or ideology of what you want people to? Do you want them to have concrete skills so that they can perform a task? Or are you wanting people to be critical self thinkers and self motivated? And can you know, if you can pull information in and analyze it, and then make a decision and be rational about it? Or are you wanting people to understand what you know that you entities between mind and heart and how those things interact? But what do you want out of their training course? And what are you ultimately designing for?

Danu Poyner:

You, you seem like quite a self directed learner. And you've got, you've got a lot of nice theory behind the different practices that you're involved in. And you're very clear about coming to the place with that, with that preparation. And I like that phrase, you know, centricity of presence and some of the other things you've said, that seems to be an interesting mix of that theory and experience that you've that you've drawn that you're kind of synthesizing as you go. How you mentioned that you haven't gone through a formal learning process? in many ways. What is your approach to learning? How do you How have you arrived at this kind of understanding of things? How do you how do you learn?

Myles Tankle:

What depends, okay, well, I'll be lying. If I said, haven't gone through any formal stuff. I've done some education, like a qualification education and some stuff in change management stuff a lot. But if there's an area that I don't really understand, how do other millennials learn jump on the internet? Now, it might not be YouTube, like so for example, if I spent a few years trying to teach myself video editing and working with cameras and stuff, because I liked it, like it's fun, YouTube, other sorts of informal learning outlets are, are useful buying tutorials, one of that sort of stuff, books, heaven forbid, we should read books, tons of books. And then it's also doing the thing I think, you know, there's a lot can be saved from just trial and error and doing something. And, you know, I think there's a great quote that came from Dave Grohl, who was the frontman, within the van, and then also the frontman of foo fighters who just said, like, get into a good garage and just suck, just suck for a while, just be really bad at something, and then eventually, you'll come good. However, he said it, he said it in a much nicer way. I think there's a lot of truth to that, you know, there's a lot of talk today about the beginner's mindset, being, you know, free of that whole sort of fear of failure. It's not a new idea that's been around for a really, really long time. But it's an important aspect to approaching anything knowing that when you first start out, you're not going to be great. But with perseverance, and diligence and understanding what you're trying to achieve, you can be

Danu Poyner:

I guess, then, you know, you've got this, this emotional maturity to reflect on these things. If you were to gift someone, a life changing learning experience, or something that you think would, would result in an outbreak of clarity for them, what's it What's a learning experience you would give to someone? Go to India, go to India, get it applied? No hesitation there at all. Tell me about that.

Myles Tankle:

Oh, my gosh. I've been fortunate enough to travel some parts of the world and I've lived in a few different countries. Very, very fortunate in that in that instance, but going to India, with my now partner and the mother of my child, and who at that point was just a friend. You know, on a on a holiday was one of the strongest life changing experiences personally. Yes, a lot of stuff there. Yes, we had a child, okay, cool, life changing. But more than anything else, the beautiful thing about that country is that it is it is all things all at once. It is the Alpha and Omega, there are the most wonderful moments of joy and happiness and color and fluidity of experience and which live literally right next to and on top of the deepest, darkest parts of the human experience. You know, you can either stand at the top of the mountain or be in the gutter in all on the same moments. And that experience of seeing the wrongness of life is something that I've never experienced. I grew up in South Africa and South Africa is a troubled country. There's no was about. And I experienced things there. And yes, I come from a very privileged, middle class white background. There's no denying that. But you know, we definitely saw another way. And I was part of that generation that went through that changeover of government and experienced that, and there was a very powerful time. But we still, South Africa still lives behind different walls, you know, it's, it's still in that way, it's changed a lot, it's come a lot better, it's gone a lot worse, at the same time. beautiful country, very recommend going to visit, it's an incredible place. But India has didn't seem to have those walls in quite the same way as an outsider. You know, I think culturally, you know, it's so vast and so different and so diverse. And there's so much history there. It's just the most incredible place. So go, you either like it, you either hate it. no two ways about it. There's no in between, if you don't kind of just enjoy it. It'll teach you something about yourself because things change so rapidly. And you see such theory things that you can't help but be confronted by.

Danu Poyner:

Did you go to India with with a plan to have an experience like that? Or did you go for some other reason, or

Myles Tankle:

I don't know what I went for, to be honest. Like, you know, I can say in hindsight that I went to meet someone who I did person that I went with, funnily enough, but when Trudy broached it with me, I was actually visiting with my family in South Africa. And the time differential was quite strong. I think she was out at night. And I was I was in the daytime, she takes me to us going, you want to go to India, she was going to go by herself. She wanted to look for somebody that she would enjoy going with and our friendship at that time, could kind of, you know, cross, go into temples, and then also cross sitting in a bar and having a chat. So it worked out well. And I instantly just went, yeah, let's go. It was a very quick decision. Yeah, that had massive ramifications.

Danu Poyner:

Some of the best moments in life are often like that, aren't they? I think, yeah, I forget who says this quote, we've been pretty good on the quotes so far. But I forget who it is. Who says you, you live forwards but understand backwards? Might be? Might be Heidegger. That's he? Yeah. It is so true. The sense making happens on afterwards to be interesting. Well, we've talked about a lot of things. I want to ask you just one or two more things if it's okay. I noticed you're the the Vice President of TBC theater. Can you What can you tell me about what that is and what you're doing with that

Myles Tankle:

TBC theater, we've been an independent independent Theatre Company for Gosh, started in 2014. We've done at this point thing, seven mainstage productions, and a few co productions as well as some corporate work as well. What we're mainly interested in is a theater company, and it's empty and shifted in float. But we've always been interested towards working in non traditional theater spaces, which has led us to working towards creating site specific, immersive theatrical productions. Meaning that, you know, we will create a production that is tailored for a specific site with, you know, a full story. And the car that the sorry, the audience can come through into that space and experience that space, as much as they're experiencing the show that's in that space, they can go anywhere, within reason that touch anything within reason, and almost interact with the cost as they are working in that space. So immersive theatrical productions have got become quite popular of late. But we've been working in that space for quite some time now, to really understand what that that particular theatrical format is that it's very exciting. It's a really, really cool way to work. So we have been, I wouldn't say hard at work in the last couple of years as we've wrapped up one production, which did fairly well did pretty well actually was part of, I can send you all the details of all the details now. But we're we're starting to gear up to working towards a new production where we'd be devising something and looking to fill the space with that. So yeah, it's exciting takes takes a bit of time, but it's something we really enjoy doing.

Danu Poyner:

Amazing. I guess I'd be remiss if I didn't ask about what you think of the impact of COVID and the pandemic world on on the physical space and the event space and performing arts or it just it strikes me so much of what you've said today is about there's a physicality to it and being present. And, but you've also got quite a lot of perspective and experience on you know, like, you may In the cemeteries work of people returning to work at all of the motion capture work that kind of digital space as well, you must have a really interesting perspective on all this and it will really impact you personally.

Myles Tankle:

I think yes, does, I'll be honest with you, the part of our guests, the way that I've dealt with this pandemic, is not to think about it too deeply, because it is, it's is very sad. I mean, you know, I might not be working in the arts full time at the moment, which is for me and my family, a blessing but for friends of ours that we've worked with, and, you know, engaged in multiple productions or different types of shows or any sort of artistic endeavor, it's incredibly problematic. And it's really difficult watching, you know, people suffer and struggle through it. And some people have managed to find ways of dealing with that. You know, one notable example would be Bo Burnham's Netflix shown. Incredible, I mean, but you can see the dips that that man went to with his mental health, it went through the floor, but he still managed to create this incredible piece of art that really spans his experience of being locked up for a year, that's incredible. Other people that I've worked with unknown have also created similar productions and have utilized technology in a way that is new. And, you know, for example, we said at the we went to the opening of the Fringe Festival, Melbourne Fringe Festival the other night online. And that's come a long ways from where we were last year, when it came to having online events, there's still a very long way to go. And what this has done, I guess, is whilst we don't have that, that immediacy of being in a room with each other to experience a story or a narrative, there are ways that people are imaginatively bringing that to the current technology and platforms that we have. And that will only increase in time as those technologies become less daunting, less scary, the infrastructure is better. Our internet connections become, you know, our I mean, they're really our lifeblood, but a little bit more. The bandwidth expands, maybe it's a good way of putting it. So, you know, it's, it is an exciting future in one sense. But yeah, to say that we're through this and that, you know, it's all going to go back to the way it was. It's clearly not, it's clearly not. So hopefully, the arts, particularly the arts can bounce back. The one thing that I think gives a lot of faith is that, you know, when people have the need to create art, they have a real need. So, you know, whether they're doing it in a theater, or they're doing it on the street, or they're doing it wherever people will be making and thinking of ways to create something, to explain this experience, no matter which way it is, and people will continue to do that. So hopefully, there's just a body around the corner that has the money to fund it said to help it come to life.

Danu Poyner:

Yeah, maybe there will be new ways of that coming along as well. It kind of brings us back to where we started this about connection. I think one of the interesting things that I've noticed in all of this space is the rise of things like those virtual wall, like the YouTube study room, which is just some video of white noise. But it's got hundreds of 1000s of people logged into it just to have on in the background so they can connect with another person. This idea of I heard the phrase the other day, distanced intimacy. And I'm still digesting that it's quite quite a powerful idea. In the last job I had, it was supposed to be a travel job, and and very much a face to face kind of role. But I started it on March the 16th, was something right in the middle of the pandemic. And so I never met any of my other colleagues, apart from one person who's in Auckland, they're all around the world, somehow still managed to form quite meaningful and real relationships with them. There's a lot of interesting stuff in there. And I think connection is swirling around in the middle of it. So I thank you for making that connection for us today. Is there? Is there something that you're working on at the moment that you'd like to give a shout out for and if any of the three people listening to this one I want to help or support in some way?

Myles Tankle:

Look, at this moment in time things are, anything that's creative is fairly nascent. So, you know, there should hopefully be a TBC theatrical production in some way, shape, or form coming up soon. I don't have many details to to talk about that. But if you head to our website, TPC theater calm today, you believe it is, by all means you should know that. I should absolutely know what our website is. Yeah, reach out. We're on Facebook as well. So um, connect up with us. And yeah, we'll be posting any details that we have going in the future once we start kind of, you know, unfurling unfurling the marketing plan, whatever it might be. So yeah, I'd say that's probably the one area to go. Outside of that. I'm focusing on the change management at the moment, day by day. And yeah, if anybody has any questions, please reach out. By all means, as well.

Danu Poyner:

what's what's the best way for for someone to do that?

Myles Tankle:

Good question. Possibly LinkedIn, heavily linked, reach out on LinkedIn, it's no problem whatsoever.

Danu Poyner:

Cool. Hey, Michael, thank you so much. It's been a really wide ranging conversation. And I really appreciate it. Lots of things I didn't get to ask you about. Maybe we'll do it another time. But thanks for being such an inspiring and upbeat person. Really, really pleased to connect with you again, after all this time, and thank you so much for for being on the show.

Myles Tankle:

Likewise, and thank you for inviting me. I'm very excited to to hear more about how all goes and I wish you all the best. I think that's a fabulous idea and best of luck to you, Daniel. It's been a pleasure.