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From classroom to corporate with TESOL teacher and instructional designer Diego Boada | S2E8

May 24, 2022

From classroom to corporate with TESOL teacher and instructional designer Diego Boada | S2E8
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In this episode: Losing your job in the pandemic and reverse culture shock when moving from the US back to Colombia. From English language teaching to instructional design for product managers. Never leaving school and how teachers are more than teachers. Universal design for learning. How teaching expertise is valued in traditional education vs instructional design and edtech and what that means for teachers' freedom and creativity. Filling your cup and finding structure in uncertainty.

About the Guest:  Diego Boada is an educator, researcher, and instructional designer from Colombia with over 15 years of experience. As a Fulbright scholar, Diego earned his M.Ed. and Ph.D. in Learning, Design, and Technology at the University of Georgia in the US. Before recently becoming an e-learning consultant at the Inter-American Development Bank, Diego worked at Product School where he collaborated with product leaders from top Silicon Valley companies to develop training materials and certificates for product managers. Also, Diego is working on his Executive MBA at Quantic School of Business and Technology. [Diego's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/diego-boada/]

Recorded 12 April 2022

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About the Host: Despite never letting school interfere with his education, Danu has nevertheless acquired two social science degrees and an executive MBA. He toils at the intersection of education, technology and society and has worked at various times in teaching, research, project management, business development and customer service. He has so many interests that he has started to outsource them, and his life plan is rapidly running out of alphabet.  [Danu's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danupoyner/]

Music: Kleptotonic Swing by Tri-Tachyon

Website: stillcuriouspodcast.com | Email: stillcuriouspodcast@gmail.com
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Transcript
Diego Boada:

For me, the pandemic. Really changed everything in my life. I always need to have a plan, a five to 10 year plan in my head, it's like, okay, I'm going to do this. And then that, and then that, and then, I need to have a plan. then the pandemic happened. There was no plan everything. was uncertain, I lost my job. how am I going to pay for rent and how am I going to eat? There were just too many changes, cultural changes, like everything happened at the same time. I had to really learn how to deal with uncertainty

Danu Poyner:

You're listening to the Still Curious Podcast with me, Danu Poyner. My guest today is Diego Boada who is an educator, researcher and instructional designer based in Bogota, Colombia Diego started out as an English teacher and has over 15 years experience in K to 12 higher education and adult education. He is a Fulbright scholar with a PhD in learning design and technology, has been an instructional designer at an online school for product managers, and is now an e-learning consultant at the Inter-American Development Bank. In today's episode, we discuss Diego's trajectory through the many and varied parts of the education sector, and how the timing of his move back from the US to Colombia near the start of the pandemic forced his transition from the classroom to corporate environment

Diego Boada:

these are topics that you're not familiar. You feel like, what am I doing here? how can I help? But then I understood a lot of people know the content, but not a lot of people know how to communicate that and how to design, meaningful learning experiences.

Danu Poyner:

We talk about universal design, reverse culture shock and how teaching English opens doors. And we end up reflecting a lot on the way teaching expertise is valued in traditional education versus instructional design and ed tech, and what that means for teachers' freedom and creativity.

Diego Boada:

For me, everything goes. It's like, you're the doctor that you look at the problem and then you prescribe X or Y depending on the situation. And they just can't do that but typically they don't have the ability or the freedom to do that because they're restricted because of the format of.

Danu Poyner:

We talk about how Diego is doing mentally and emotionally at this point in his career transition, as well as how he fills his cup and finds structure in uncertainty.

Diego Boada:

I'm grateful to be here and to be alive. I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. I can do a thousand things in a day, but if I don't get to workout, I feel like I didn't do anything. And that day I don't feel as accomplished or productive. It just becomes part of your routine or a habit.

Danu Poyner:

Diego's experience makes him really well-placed to see how the global education landscape is evolving, and I really appreciated his insights. Enjoy. It's Diego Boada coming up after the music on today's episode of the Still Curious Podcast. hi Diego, how are you? Welcome to the podcast?

Diego Boada:

hi, Danu. Thanks for having me. A little bit nervous, but I'm excited to talk to you.

Danu Poyner:

no reason to be nervous. I've got so much to ask you about, but first I have to rattle off your impressive and frankly, intimidating list of accomplishments, and then we can get into it. So, you're an educator, researcher and instructional designer with over 15 years experience in K to 12 higher education and adult education. You're also a Fulbright scholar with a PhD in learning design and technology. And you've completed a post-doctoral fellowship in pedagogy for culturally and linguistically diverse students. You've been working recently as an instructional designer at product school, which is a well-respected one stop shop for product management education. And you're now an e-learning consultant at the Inter-American development bank. It's an impressive list of accomplishments. What would you say is the most important thing for someone to understand about what you do?

Diego Boada:

I feel like I've never left school, so I'm always learning. For example, like after my PhD I never imagined that I would go back to school, now I'm doing an MBA. I think that that keeps things fun and interesting when you keep learning. In a way I still see myself as an educator. At the core of what I do, I still think of myself as an English teacher.

Danu Poyner:

well, that's really interesting. And I like the phrase you've never left school. It sounds like you've really taken that lifelong learning phrase and really run with it. As you say, you've started out as an English teacher in Colombia, teaching English to speakers of other languages, what was attractive about that path for young Diego?

Diego Boada:

When I was little, I wanted to become a medical doctor. I actually applied for med school twice and didn't make it. And then I thought to myself, what is something that I really liked doing and something that I enjoy and I've always liked learning languages. I have a natural ability for teaching. So then, I applied for that program and I got in first time. It's been really crazy because it's something that I really enjoy. And for me, It gave me a different way to see the world. In Spanish we speak in very long sentences and sometimes one paragraph is just one single sentence. There is no, no periods. And I think the same applies to French and all the romance languages and in English, everything is very short, concise. It helped me to think more clearly in a way, and it's open opportunities like my scholarship, to go to the United States, do my master's PhD, job opportunities, all of that. English has really opened doors for me. And I like to share that with my students, so it's fun to get to know people, also because you are working with a language. So the content is, it's like, what did you do last weekend? I feel like I really get to connect with people and see them grow in different ways. And also the fact that we're talking about also culture. Teachers in general, we say that we're more than teachers, because you teach math, whatever it is, but you're also teaching culture and all of these different things, especially if you are an English teacher.

Danu Poyner:

That's really interesting. I like what you say as well about being more than teachers and especially with language teaching, there is a lot of. Being immersed in the culture and sharing that and other people we've had on the podcast have talked a bit about that as well, I'm curious if you can share anything about Colombian culture. That might be interesting for people who are not familiar.

Diego Boada:

Something that sometimes people don't know is that we don't have seasons. We are on the equator and so basically the same season all year long. The weather, it depends on the altitude of the city. We have the Andes and so we even have glaciers in Columbia, because if it's really high, then there'll be a glacier. So my city where I live right now, Bogotá, it's kind of cold, but if you traveled two hours by car, then you're in a very hot place. If you travel two hours up the mountain, then it's very cold. And so you get all types of weather in Colombia. I think that it has some cultural implications as well, because, I've heard these theories before. People would say in Europe or whatever, a thousand years ago, you would have to plan very carefully and save in the summer, so that way you can have food and stuff to eat in the winter. And also the daylight is different, sometimes it gets darker very early, sometimes it doesn't. So that has a very huge impact. I believe on culture because here we're more relaxed, maybe, we didn't save as much. We don't think about the future as much because we can get anything we want at anytime during the year.

Danu Poyner:

Thanks for sharing that. You became interested in technology and education together and, if I understand correctly, that's what led you to subsequently go on and do your master's and PhD looking at learning design and technology. What was it about technology that made you go in that direction?

Diego Boada:

Being a classroom teacher, I started using technology and I would notice that my students would have more fun and they will learn better. So I really wanted to learn more about technology. So then I decided to pursue a master's and then a PhD. But then the more I learned about technology, the more critical I became about it. And I learned, after like, Eight years, 10 years off of school, I learned that technology does not matter. And there are many studies, for example, that compare, like students learn with iPads versus no iPad. They compare like whatever you're teaching with technology versus without technology and all of these studies, they typically have no significant differences at the end. So this is a statistical concept, which means that nothing really changed. Students in one group versus the other one. They didn't do any better because it's not about the technology is really about how you use it when you use it, why? And it has to make sense sometimes, I'd rather have pencil and paper and have a really great lesson and not just use very fancy analogy that really doesn't add any value. Maybe sometimes communication harder or right now, for example, during the pandemic, sometimes we feel more isolated with technology. You have to be very careful about the way you use technology. Really ask yourself about the value. Every time there's a new invention, new iPad, whatever there is. Is like, oh, this new instrument tool will revolutionize education. And then it's been like 50 years, a hundred years. And at the core, nothing has really changed much.

Danu Poyner:

That's really interesting, the critical side of technology, and I want to dig more into some of your perspective on that, given where you sit but I understand that universal design for learning is something that's important to you. What can you tell me about that?

Diego Boada:

Right now what I do is that I create online courses for people, right? There are many different names for what I do. Like instructional design is very common in the US, in Europe, I've heard like learning designer. In the tech industry now they like to use, learning experience designer, and so there are many different names, but basically what we do is, we create this online experiences for people. When you're designing things, it can be challenging because sometimes, when you're teaching something, you teach based on the way you learned, and based on the things that worked for you. So if you're a more visual learner then you'll somehow use that in the way you design, right? If I learn this way, that's what I'm going to use. If I think that I need to repeat this 10 times for me to remember, then that's what I'm going to do when I I'm designing a course for others. But then as a designer, you cannot do that because then it's not about you anymore. It's about what's best for people and what is best for everyone. This idea of universal design, typically the picture you will see is like a picture of stairs that also has a ramp. And so then, the stairs are good and accessible for people that want to run an exercise. And maybe also for people that have knee issues and maybe use a walking stick or people in a wheelchair. It's not like one size fits all approach, but it's accessible and is good for everyone. So when you're talking about learning is like, how do you make this, really universal. Some of the things they'll say is you need flexibility in terms of the material, the media, you need to have audio video on different types. Another thing is having flexibility in terms of the assessment, because typically, as educators, instructors, we say, you're going to learn this. And you're going to show me that you have learned by doing this activity specifically, a quiz or whatever, but is that the best way? The student should be able to choose how they wanted to demonstrate that they've learned based on their interests and their needs. Having that flexibility in the assessment, that's also important. And so there are some principles like that, that they, discuss universal design for learning on how to make learning more accessible to a general audience.

Danu Poyner:

Thank you for explaining that. That's really clear. My naive question in response goes to a little bit, what you said about the one size fits all approach. I can imagine that by trying to cater to everyone inclusively, it might be frustrating for different people. How do you actually navigate that creation of something that is accessible to everyone while still being the best experience for everyone individually in their preferences.

Diego Boada:

Well, that's a hard question and I think we're still trying to figure it out, but the idea on what research shows is that when you're designing for minorities or whatever, then the final outcome is better or is the best thing for everyone. For example, right now I see on TV, I am an English language learner. So I like to watch captions, sometimes I don't understand it in words or accents, but now that is not exclusive to English language learners. A lot of my American friends, English friends, I went to their homes and they watch TV with captions. And I'm like, why, you know. It's because maybe you design based thinking about people that. are learning English, but maybe other people will enjoy that and benefit maybe because at night that will not disturb their partner. For example, if they're watching TV. There are many different reasons. Instructional universal design for learning can be fun for everyone. Also with technology, you can customize your experience. We have adaptive learning, for example. And so based on your answers on a question or an activity, then our system can suggest what's next, based on your skill set on your interests. It allows for customization. And sometimes if you're face to face that wouldn't be possible. Like If you're a teacher with 50 students or 2030 students in your classroom, then you're gonna come up with a single path or a single way for every student because you just, can't not possible, but with technology that. makes it a little bit more doable.

Danu Poyner:

Thank you for that. Something. I ask everyone who comes on the podcast is to explain a key technical term as if to a 10 year old. I'm curious if you can explain instructional design or what's the difference between all of those terms? You mentioned instructional design, learning, experience, design, and being, say a teacher.

Diego Boada:

I love that. And that's a great question. Being able to explain things clearly, like, to a 10 year old, sometimes it's not easy. I'll do my best. So instructional design is a field that started in the 1920 when the radio started, a lot of people started learning or going to school through the radio. And the big boom of instructional design was during world war two, because there was a need to train people and soldiers. This was a problem that needed to be solved. So they consulted with psychologists and scientists in different areas. That was the boom of instructional design. If people are in education, maybe they've heard the name Gagné before and the nine events of instruction. The core of what we do is use learning theory to solve problems. These problems can be performance based or they can be instructional problem. If you work at McDonalds and you need to teach people how to make burgers, and so somebody needs to train them. That's the other thing, instructional designers, they do not only work in schools and universities that work in the industries, because companies need to train their employees. Maybe you don't need a course on how to make burgers that is six months. Not everything requires a course. It can be an infographic that they have available at their work station that shows them how to make a burger in simple steps. When a company or institution has a problem, then they come to us and then we look at the problem, because sometimes people don't know what they need and usually companies will come to you, like, Hey, I mean, of course on that because I need to improve my sales, but then it's, okay, what is the problem? Really? So we look at the problem and do we need training for that? Do we not need training for that? Then instructional designers, we work with companies with the governments, with the military, with schools, and then we solve problems using pedagogy, using education and learning theory and that would be my short explanation what I do.

Danu Poyner:

It occurs to me while you're talking that more than teacher applies very much to this space as well, because you're taking on subject matter expertise and listening to client needs and really co-designing with them, learning to solve problems. If I understood you correctly.

Diego Boada:

Correct. That's why I said at the beginning, I still see myself as a teacher because, my expertise is on how to teach, how to get people, to learn something, how to engage students, how to teach online. That's what I do. That's what I bring to the table. If you hired me to create a course on engineering or something, like astronomy, I don't know anything about that, but then I know a lot about how to get that information to students in a way that makes sense to them, in a way they understand it and they will remember that in a way that it's meaningful. That's why collaboration is so essential and it's fun because then, when you were with a different person, then maybe that person will bring a perspective that you haven't considered yet, or has a different way to approach a problem.

Danu Poyner:

It seems instructional designer is pretty much the sexy new role that everyone in ed tech is aspiring to. Meanwhile, product management is a hot role in tech that everyone wants as well. I want to talk to you about product school, because here you are doing instructional design for product management. What can you tell me about that?

Diego Boada:

I've learned a lot about product management and I had no idea what that was a few months ago. I'm going to answer your question in two different parts, because the first one has to do with instructional design and everybody wants to do it now. And then the other one has to do with product management. So the first thing is yes, I think instructional design is a very hot topic right now. I see that in my LinkedIn, everywhere that a lot of teachers are looking to maybe transition out of the classroom and then they're looking for roles in instructional design or learning and development. I'm excited in a way, but also sad because these are great educators that love what they do, but because of their problems with the system and because they're not very well valued on paid, they get burnt out and now they're looking for other opportunities. In my case, it was kinda weird because I ended up doing this masters and PhD in these area. But I saw myself as a professor in academia, but then I'd been another pandemic. I lost my job. Then I had to jump to the industry in a way, cause I had to make a living. So it wasn't like, It wasn't very intentional my transition, but I know that a lot of people and teachers are doing this and there are support groups on LinkedIn where you can get advice from other teachers on how they transition, how to create a portfolio to show to potential employers. And I think that there is a lot of opportunity for that because I saw this quote, I don't know who said, but it's something like, The thing that is more expensive about training your employees is not training". That was the quote, because like all of the industries, we're in constant change right now for the pandemic, things are changing rapidly. There are always new tools, new ways to do things and companies need people that know how to teach and people that can create these courses and solve these problems for them. And that has a huge impact on the business and the return on investment. That's one thing you know about instructional design, the other thing that was new to me is product management. A product manager is someone who oversees. a digital products. Some examples are like Facebook, Google, Uber, all of these websites that have apps and mobile apps that people use to access their services. The product manager will look at these apps, but there's more than that because they need to understand how engineering works. But they also need to understand the market. They need to understand the strategy behind it. They need to prioritize the features that they want to release. They collect a little data, so, okay. People are not using this feature. Because they don't see where it is or they don't find value. They need to come up with a strategy to get people to use that tool. and They really have to have a very good perspective of looking at everything, like the business, the strategy, the roadmap, the engineering part. It's a really great role to look at everything in perspective. And at the end of the day, the mission of the product manager is to represent the customer or the user so that you need to advocate for their needs, for their pains and make sure that they find value and that you offer a solution that is good to them because people are not looking for new apps and websites. People are looking for a solution to a problem they have. Your role as a manager is to understand their needs and in a way, advocate for them, for the. It's been really great to learn about product management, because it gives me a different perspective on learning design. When you create an online course or online learning, we always talk about, for example, student centered learning, you want students to be at the center of the processes and these. But then, sometimes it's kind of boring, you will see pre recorded lectures sometimes, professors looking for an hour, two hours, and then has the student really understood of the process. I don't know, they check out after 10 minutes of listening to something. So, product management is like, okay, we're talking about us as a user now. What is the user journey when you opened your app and you're open your online course, what is the first thing that you see? How can I help you adopt these new features and how can help you understand this because when you use a new app, you don't know how to use it. It has to be very intuitive, user friendly. You can have prompts on the screen to guide users. And so they track even how you feel. If you feel frustrated at the beginning, how to improve that. They really think about the experience of the user. And so like Taking that into education really works as well, because then if you think this student is logging in today's learning management system, this platform, and they just listened to two hours of this professor talking then it was maybe not the best experience, right?

Danu Poyner:

Yeah. So, product school, they have certificate courses and workshops and networking and mentoring, eBooks, basically everything you could want for learning about product management and either getting into that career or going further with it. I'm curious what some examples of your work as an instructional designer there have been, it sounds high pressure, designing, learning materials for product managers who have a very critical eye of what that process is in the first place.

Diego Boada:

Before I answer that question, something that I wanted to mention is that there is also a huge growth for product managers right now, because traditionally these positions are for people in Silicon valley, like big tech company, facebook and all of these companies, but right now, like every major industry, every company needs to have a digital product. If you own a restaurant, whatever your business is, you need to have an app. You have to have a way for customers to connect with you. For example, last weekend I ordered take out. I order some food. And so, you always know how to use it but you don't realize what they're doing. So there was the striker showing me like where the person was and the different stages, okay, the restaurant is preparing your meal and they send me emails saying, Hey, your food is ready. And please rate your experience and it's very high tech, the platform was really very clean, very easy to navigate. I'm like, wow, they have a really good product manager working in this company. And so All of these companies now they have the need to transition because right now, after the pandemic, that's the way things are going. I talked to the CEO of ellii.com. They create online resources for teachers. They were formerly known as ESL library. And then they started creating PDFs and printable worksheets. That was their business. They still have those because a lot of teachers want those. They want to be able to print, but now they have to create digital products on flashcards and fully online lessons. So now product management is not longer something that happened in Silicon valley, but it's something that happens across every industry that needs to have a strong digital presence. What do I do for product managers? They are wonderful at what they do, but they don't necessarily have training in education or how to teach people or how to create a course. That's where I come in. I sit with them and we'll think about, for example, one of the things we did at Product School was that we created a skills taxonomy because product management is not a formal field. You don't go to school for that necessarily. There isn't like a degree, a master's and undergraduate degree that prepares to do that. Also this role looks very different from company to company. In some companies, the product manager, maybe it's more of project manager, even some other companies, they do more marketing, maybe some other companies, they do more, engineering. We started with, let's create a skills taxonomy of what is it that people need to do to become a successful product manager. And then we create a certificate for people that are aspiring, people that don't have a role right now, and then they want to become product manager. So, what is it that they need to learn? Then? I know the certification for current product managers. I've met people that they learned on the job. They don't have formal training in product management, but then they were just thrown into this field. I've learned some of the language. The personas are the people that use your product. So they'll look up different personas. We create certifications for them. So that's one of the things I do. Another thing I do is I created a morning course for instructors because they don't know how to necessarily teach because that's what they do. And so it's, okay, what is it that they need to learn in terms of the pedagogy or the approach to guide a successful cohort or to facilitate online learning. We have this education department now that we take care of all of those things. And, we also partner with other companies to create micro certifications. And so right now I'm doing one for a product led growth And so I get to learn a lot by working with these people and designing their courses. It's like an added benefit of being an instructional designer because you're always learning.

Danu Poyner:

absolutely. That's like doing this podcast. I learned so much from just talking to people, doing random things. So that's great. I want to come back to what you were saying before about teachers leaving the profession and maybe being interested in going into instructional design and the kind of recognition in business that we need people who know how to teach things. There's seems to be. A gap in recognition of value there. Traditional teachers are very underpaid and overworked and not always appreciated as a profession. But on the other side, in this instructional design profession, it seems that the value of that function is really well-recognized and well remunerated, have a perspective on that from your own experience and people you've seen moving around?

Diego Boada:

Yeah, I would agree with you, that teachers are attracted to these field because they feel more valued and also you can, at the end of the day, you can close your computer and then you can be home with your kids, with your family. Teachers, we don't do that. There's always something that you need to grade to prepare, to listen, plan to, take care of. That's why it's becoming really attractive to many teachers but that doesn't mean that it's easy. Some people said that there are two types of instructional designers, the ones that work in education, like schools, universities, that kind of thing. And then the other ones are working in the industry, for banks and car makers and for health companies. Sometimes it's hard because they want the teacher experience on the expertise, but they also want someone that understands the industry. If you're working for car makers, it's, okay, do you have previous experience, do you know what we do? Sometimes it's a little bit hard to jump, but it's possible and I've seen so many success cases of teachers that they put together, their portfolios on the examples of whether they can do. And then they're able to get a full-time position as instructional designers. For me, if I'm a good teacher, my students benefit from me and my expertise, but it's only my students, 20 of them or 40 whatever, how many you have. But then when you are instructional designer or when you work in ed tech, you're able to scale that up to thousands, if not millions of people. If you design a course, we're going to have a huge impact on the students where people at our company and then, instructional design really lets you have a bigger reach. So it's great because that's what you want to do as a teacher. Anyway.

Danu Poyner:

Yeah, true. That's why teachers do what they do. Do you think that gap in value has anything to do with the fact that instructional design is about solving problems and it's practical and urgent and immediate. Whereas teachers at schools it's diffuse and everyone knows great teachers are great, but it doesn't really connect to tangible outcomes straightaway. It's a really interesting distinction to me about how we value teaching expertise.

Diego Boada:

What you said, I think it's true, but it doesn't even depend on the teacher. Sometimes as a teacher, you're just given a textbook, you're given a syllabus or given that this is what you're teaching. We have this exam at the end of the year. Your students need to pass or our school won't get any funding. So there is something about the system that doesn't necessarily help teachers to grow or flourish or be more flexible. As a teacher, you have to follow the lead of your school principal and whatever the government says or the ministry of education. Instructional designers, You do whatever, because it's about solving a problem and, talking about this as a teacher, the different learning theories, for example, one is behavior is, um, meaning that you learn through repetition. There is cognitivism, and he's all about what happens to your brain and maybe coming up with strategies that will help you remember things more easily. There is constructivism that is about, building and co-creating knowledge. And so if you're learning English is more about practicing and using that in context. If you use the language, then that's how you learn it instead of just repeating sentences. We have different schools of thought. And then as a teacher, I felt like behaviorism it's not good anymore. You cannot use that in your classroom because nobody likes repetition. Isn't that. But then maybe there was a misconception that I had as a teacher, but right now I am like, that's international designers. Everything goes because sometimes repetition or behavior, is going to be a good thing, or depending on your need. If you have to teach something, someone had to do something quickly and reliably, then maybe repetition is great. And I've also worked with teachers that teach special education. They do a lot of behavior training to help kids stop hitting themselves, and teach them how to communicate and how to do certain tasks. For me, everything goes. It's like, you're the doctor that you look at the problem and then you prescribe X or Y depending on the situation. And they just can't do that but typically they don't have the ability or the freedom to do that because they're restricted because of the format of.

Danu Poyner:

It sounds like one of the big appeals of instructional design as a profession is that kind of freedom and pragmatism to be situational and work out the best response to the situation at hand, which is not a freedom that many people have enjoyed in teaching for a while, perhaps. That's really interesting. Do you have any examples of instructional design work that you've created that you're proud of or that surprised you how it ended up compared to where it started?

Diego Boada:

Examples. I've designed courses in many different areas like nursing and engineering and sociology and education and product management. And now my new position, I think you'll be like courses on the economy and things like that. I wouldn't maybe think of a specific project that is better than the other one, but for me, it was a little bit difficult at the beginning because these are topics that you're not familiar. You feel like, what am I doing here? how can I help? But then I understood quickly that he's not about knowing the content because a lot of people know the content, but not a lot of people know how to communicate that and how to design, meaningful learning experiences. That's something that I learned. During the pandemic, I taught a course for English teachers on how to design an English teaching program. This was a course that was sponsored by the us department of state. And so teachers had scholarships to take this course, American embassies. Because we had teachers from all over the world, we couldn't meet on zoom or anything like that. So we had to come up with other ways. And so then we started? making. These interviews on YouTube. so The idea of the project is that we have a problem. What about the problem or approach? Let's say, we don't have computers in our school, so we cannot really teach our students. And then we invite experts on these experts are academics and researchers. This expert are classroom teachers because they are the ones that are in the classroom and then people from the industry to talk about this problem. And we do that in about 20 minutes. So this project is getting some attention. I'm really proud of it because. It solves a lot of issues. One is, this is our professional organization for teachers, but it is expensive to pay your fees and they have an annual conference in the US every year. So traveling to the us is very expensive. This product is available for anyone for free any sound. There is a way to connect with people around the world because TESOL international association, that's the association that I'm working with. They have 44,000 members in more than 150 countries. Of course it's not easy to get to those people that engage with. Also they're very academic in nature. When you go to a conference, sometimes it's very good day mix as a teacher, you stay through it and you don't really know what's going on because of the number, because of that. So it's not using language that is clear and accessible to a practitioner, there's a disconnect. They're evolving being, from more traditional ways and traditional conferences now okay, now we need a podcast. Now we need a I think on YouTube, we need to start using social media. and Universities are going through this process again. All universities that I know they have profiles on Tik TOK. They have profiles on Instagram. Things are switching and changing rapidly. I see education as something that is changing, especially after the pandemic. I'm really hopeful about what's to come here in terms of education.

Danu Poyner:

Speaking of the T-cell organization. I understand you recently got back from the annual TESOL conference in Pittsburgh, which is a huge conference with about 10,000 attendees. I understand the vast majority of people did attend that conference remotely. And so I'm wondering as someone who went in person and as someone who designs learning experiences, what's your view on these hybrid kinds of events and what works well and what doesn't?

Diego Boada:

Yeah, That was a very good experience. Very interesting. Of course. When you are an instructional designer, nothing is good enough. You're always thinking about what to improve on and what you could do better is say applies to product managers. If you're done, then you know, you're not good for this job. You always have to reinvent yourself and think about things to improve. For TESOL international association, their conferences, the main event of the year. There were 10,000 attendees. And then, because of the pandemic, they were fully online. And now this was the first time that the conference was hybrid and there were a lot of challenges. The conference went really well, but then there were some challenges and mainly the way I see it the main challenge is how do we engage people that are online and in-person at the same time, because when it was online, I feel like it was easier. Everybody was in zoom, where everybody was in these shared space. But now it's difficult to do, to think about both audiences, the ones that are online, the ones that are watching the recording, the ones that are in person. Sometimes they neglect one of those audiences. And so they focus only on the people that are here present because they can see them, but they never get that somebody else is online. I think that is the main challenge. During the conference I hosted these coffee chats and now that is relate to the YouTube project. It was like we were on zoom, I had some slides or whatever, but we projected zoom on the big screen in the other convention center. We had guests that were in person and at least one guest that was online. And so that helped us to be more aware. you know, If you have, I guess that is online, then you remind yourself that there is something else there, that people are watching. And It was a great way to get people to interact, like people that are in line, because they felt included. I also think. Tools like Mentimeter, that's something that people can use, whether they're in person or remote. They can join and react to this light and ask questions and participate and provide their opinion. My goal as the facilitator was to really engage everyone in the conversation. For example, the statements, one statement that I had for one of the coffee chats was in 10 years, every education company will become an ed tech company. Do you mostly agree or do you mostly disagree? At the end, these people that were in person in a remote, they could vote. And then the guest panel, the experts that were invited they will discuss this, but then everybody was participating, not only the experts, but also the participant. They could chime in and write in the chart or let us know what they feel until we could see the presence of people that thought one way versus the other way. On the last day, everybody, every guest speaker had their laptop on, because that way we could capture their video and then they could also see people at home. And so, Logistically complicated a little bit, especially for a big conference like this.

Danu Poyner:

Yeah, absolutely. Because the two main experiences that happen at hybrid things at the moment is either it's an in-person event and as you say that people online are forgotten about in the corner and excluded, or you've got a lot of people in a room awkwardly sitting, watching an online video. It's interesting watching how everyone navigating past that. It sounds like you've hit upon a nice formula there, you're always saying that this things to improve. So what would you improve about that for next time?

Diego Boada:

well, I would say that, being more mindful of people at home, just because they're the majority, but another thing is that, TESOL is an academic organization. So they're academic, on the conference, the style and everything is very different from, let's say, conferences in Silicon valley. Product school. They host three conferences a year. For a while they were in person, they would have a conference for product managers in San Francisco, New York, London. Then they went to being online. So right now they're doing online, but this year, they're going to host their first hybrid conference in San Francisco. Because I am, I intersection between both things so I can see universities and academics during their conference, and then people in Silicon valley wearing jeans and t-shirts and having DJs and having magicians. The conference experience is so different. I think that in a way I can see both things coming together there, learning from each other, because conferences in Silicon valley can be fun, it's that vibe of releasing the new iPhone, it's that set up kind of thing. I want to reduce the gap between both worlds, because at the end of the day, a conference is about communicating clearly and sometimes they write great articles and they have great ideas, but then those ideas are not communicated to the people that need them. Instructional design is also about learning how to communicate.

Danu Poyner:

Absolutely. That's so interesting. I want to ask you about your new role because some people listening to this will be thinking, wow, instructional design and product management, the intersection that's. the goal, but you're actually finishing up that role and moving on to being an E learning consultant at the Inter-American development bank. What can you tell me about that? Why are you making that move first? And then what will it be about

Diego Boada:

That's a good question. I am hooked with product management. I want to keep learning more and I told them maybe I'll come back at some point and work with you in some of the capacity, because it's been really fun and I've learned so much and I really enjoy everything that has to do with product management. I don't see myself as one because I am a learning experience designer. I am instructional designer, but then it is helpful to have that kind of background. I did not want to lose my job and that's the honest truth because it's remote because I enjoy it. It's a great company. And also, remote work very differently. Tech companies, they're very future forward, we don't use email, like everything is on slack. We have a meeting on Fridays. We go to all hands and it's 15 minutes and the whole company gets together and there is time for everything. So Every department head will give an update and at the end we have time for shutouts. We use slack and, if you need a request for marketing, then you just post in marketing channel or, Hey, I need this. Can you guys help me? If you have a request for the website, then you do that. We don't have a lot of zoom meetings, you have flexibility to work at anytime, from anywhere in the world. It was really fun. And now I'm going back to another role where it's in person, you know, a bank, I'm assuming that it's going to be more hierarchical and traditional. Email is going to be everywhere now. But I'm excited because of the opportunity and the reach. This bank, they work with government in, they have international organization, they have 48 countries that are members and the goal is to improve the lives of people in Latin America and the Caribbean. I know when my role is on paper, but then you will not know for sure until you are actually doing the work. So we'll see, I start next week, so wish me luck. But then, I'm going to be in a position where I can. Not only this people, but millions of people in America, thinking about strategies on courses on this and that, and how to improve e-learning and being an advisor to governments. That excites me. So I'm really committed to the mission, because it's going back to the teacher metaphor, a teacher wants to help people at the very end. Here I'm going to be in a position where I can help, potentially lots of people. That makes me excited for it because her program management, it is also a huge impact, but in a different way,

Danu Poyner:

Thank you for that. That really resonates with me and the teacher in you wants to have impact, and that's really what it comes down to. I really curious to ask you about the way that the pandemic has maybe changed your perspective and priorities. It's come up quite a bit in this conversation, and you mentioned. Initially it, wasn't your choice to move into remote work. And you found yourself in a situation where you had to find other work, but here you are taking on this incredible opportunity that wouldn't have come up. Otherwise. Have you reflected at all on the pandemic and the way it's changed, the way you look at things.

Diego Boada:

Yeah. that's a great question because for me, the pandemic. Really changed everything in my life. I talked to people about this too, and sometimes people, they say, oh, I was really happy because I could spend time with my family. I know a little working moms, they could be at home with their kids. And of course I was challenging. I dunno how they do meetings and work and cook and everything at the same time. But then maybe that gave them the opportunity to be closer to their family and see in a way how much they were missing on before. For a lot of people. I feel like he was a very good experience. And then, it was easy or whatever, but for me, it was really hard at a professional and personal level. At a personal level, I didn't know that I was anxious before about the future. I think too much about the future. I always need to have a plan, a five to 10 year plan in my head, it's like, okay, I'm going to do this. And then that, and then that, and then, I need to have a plan. Then during the pandemic or the beginning, there was no plan everything. was uncertain, I lost my job. how am I going to pay for rent and how am I going to eat? I had to really learn how to deal With with uncertainty and ambiguity. So that was different. At a professional level. I had been in the US for seven years, so I'd moved back to Columbia and then the pandemic happened. I was dealing with reverse cultural shock because that's actually real. There were just too many changes, cultural changes, like everything happened at the same time. At the beginning in Columbia, the pandemic, the measures were really extreme. You couldn't leave your home at all, only once per week. And so it was like enough, like an apocalypse in a way, and not knowing everybody's going to die and you see people dying around you. That really affected me. After two years, I'm doing better and now, I'm okay with not having a plan. And be more flexible, and I'm working towards that, but my new position, it's a three-year position because consultants at his bank, they renew their contracts. You have to apply to be a full time person or this or that. Someone told me, Hey, that sounds like a good opportunity. It sounds like certainty or you know, that it's three years, but before the peninsula would be like, that's not enough because what's going to happen after three years. I need to know now, I need to have a blend. I'm still struggling with that a little bit, but now I want to believe, I want to think that I'm more flexible with how I approach life and challenges because everything is in constant change, whether you like it or not. And sometimes we feel comfortable with what's known, we don't like change people. Don't like change. Cause you don't know you don't like the unknown.

Danu Poyner:

had everything been going to plan before the pandemic.

Diego Boada:

Mostly. Yes, I highlight, I'm thirty three I'm 33. I had in my head, we know before I'm 30, I need to do this. There's this there's this. I was checking boxes like this there's, this one of them is I wanted to jump out of a plane with a parachute and I did that. And so I had certain things that I wanted to do because of the kind of person I am. But now I'm like, I'm just gonna run the flow. I'm grateful to be here and to be alive. I don't know what's going to happen tomorrow.

Danu Poyner:

That is a big change? I had one of those lists as well, about what I needed to do by the time I turned 30, but almost none of it happened. I'm impressed that you managed to tick off your things. So Something I always ask people on the podcast is about whether they're on plan A or some other letter of the alphabet, it sounds like you're one of the more Plan A people I've spoken to. You've always been in the education space. You always wanted to do that. And you've been that where it goes. Is that a fair.

Diego Boada:

Maybe, I never imagine doing what I'm doing today. I know what I want to do, but I don't know exactly. I just start something and then there's an opportunity for something else. Or I jump to that opportunity because I need to take it. It's been like a progression in a way. I've been lucky because as you said, for some people, they want one thing and you know, that is not what they get. There's so many factors and things that you cannot control. I think in a way I've been lucky that I've been able to build on previous work or whatever. But still, if you ask me and I hate this question sometimes in interviews, it's like, what do you see yourself in five years? I'm like, I have no idea. Before I would be like, okay, in five years, I'm going to be doing business. It's not as like I have an idea.

Danu Poyner:

Yeah. Who knows? I don't know what I'm doing in five weeks, to be honest. You mentioned reverse cultural shock. Can you recall a moment when you realized, oh, I'm having reverse cultural shock and what was happening then?

Diego Boada:

I don't know how to answer the question politely because I don't want to say anything bad about Columbia, but something that was shocking to me is that coming from the UAS on the universities, everything is up for discussion and this has to do with culture really. You know, like I taught a course on intercultural communication was the name of the course. There are some different ways that people may share different cultures. One of them is, how you interact with your boss at work. In some cultures, your boss is like your friend, but in some other cultures, there is a very hierarchical position there. You're not allowed to even question when your boss says, you just need to do it's unaccepted because it's your boss. That was a little bit difficult for me at the very beginning, because I, I was coming from a very open setting where everything have for discussion. If you need something to just go and get it, if you need to talk to this person, you go and do it. But then here, I come to a university and then there was a lot of structure. That was challenging. Something that happens in developing countries is this idea of, I think that word is nepotism when you get a position because you have the right context of our friends, and not necessarily because you have this skillset for that. That is a really bad thing to do because there's about four, the company, or the business that you have, because you're not getting access to the base talent out there. I saw a little bit of that. That was weird for me. I love Columbia. I'm from here and I love my country, but I know that there are things that we can improve. We have so many different regions and things in Columbia within the same country and as is true for every country. And so The way this culture works in a specific city is different from a different city or a different region within the same country. And so That's why I don't want to generalize.

Danu Poyner:

Yeah, that's very fair. Culture can mean many things about the way expectations, match reality. I don't know if you've seen the culture map, framework. Is that one that you've come across before? That was one of the things that gave me some concepts and vocabulary to think about those things with that's really useful.

Diego Boada:

That one, I don't think I've heard before, but, what is Hofstede's model and some other ones that they have, like nine different elements or factors. And they measure that and you can actually go and look at specific country and see how they measure on those aspect on that. Intercultural communication, but that actually come from business. The people doing this research, one of them worked for IBM, the tech company. They had businesses and offices in a hundred countries. When a company is that big, how do you navigate that? Working with people from the different cultures and different countries is not easy. They actually did the research and some of the ratios we is the ratio that we use today for culturing Daryl. But he's actually coming from the business perspective.

Danu Poyner:

On that notice, you mentioned that you were doing an MBA. Not everyone a teacher background and teacher approach to the world has an MBA or goes in that direction. What made you decide take that path?

Diego Boada:

I guess two reasons. One is because I started working in the edtech world and the edtech industry. I felt like I needed to understand more about how our company works, because, we don't know that, sometimes school doesn't teach you things that are necessary, like how to do taxes, how to invest money, how to buy a house, how to take care of your mental health. So business is one thing that I need to know about. When I work with teachers, sometimes I show them, oh, we can do this cool thing about instructional design. We have this model or this whatever. Sometimes teachers tell me like, oh, that's common sense. That's something that I knew or that I've done, by maybe I wasn't aware of that specific way or model or I didn't put it into words like that. I wasn't aware of that. In business is the same, once you're doing business and you let's say you have a startup company or whatever, maybe you learn from others, then you know how to do it. But then once you have the theory and the framework everything makes more sense. I get to understand maybe some of the decisions. Before this job, I know the it's a company and sometimes I didn't know, like nothing makes sense to me. Why are they always changing and pivoting and changing the product? And it's just stick with one thing and just go with it. Startup companies always change it and they have to reevaluate their needs. Now I understand that. It's okay. And Another thing when I worked with people in this industry, I have a bit of understanding of what they do and where they want to grow. So I am able to help them in a better way. And I've learned a lot about different things in these MBA program. It has been really fun. I met you there, so, you know. great things happen.

Danu Poyner:

That's how we know each other.

Diego Boada:

Full disclosure.

Danu Poyner:

Yeah, exactly.

Diego Boada:

so number one, and number two, The second reason is that I really liked the learning design and the learning experience, because that's what I do. And so like, I don't wanna go back to school necessarily, who wants to go back to school? Then, I saw the platform and these people and, I think the CEO of this university was the CEO of Rosetta stone before. Rosetta stone was a very popular platform to learn languages similar to Duolingo. All of these companies actually coming from the English language world, I know Duolingo, they, one of the sponsors of national association, they developed great technology and great platforms to learn. They're very user friendly. You swipe to the right you swipe to the left. They're very interactive. They have points of gamification you have this and that you have reminders, challenges. really great. And so now, in our MBA, I feel like it's taking that technology. And then they brought that into business. The way we learn is a swipe to the right. You swipe to the left. There is no prerecorded lectures. We have student associations, we have over the things to make it engaging. The exams are open book and everything is based on the context. On Saturday I went to the library to study and I was with a friend. And so my friend is doing a BA in business administration. I knew it was just formulas, formulas, formulas, and lectures, long lectures. And the exam was really hard. Sometimes he would fail the exams and I show him what I was doing. I'm just going through scenarios. Okay, this person wants to create a company. So the first thing they need to do is this, what question do you think he needs to ask his stakeholders? So a, B, C, D. So as you interact, and so it walks you through the situation and what you need to actually do in real life and not necessarily the theory and the formulas and the boring lectures. I've really enjoyed the experience and I wanted to learn how they're doing it. It was like my inception moment in a way, because I'm going through the lens of our learning designer. What can I learn based on that? Not necessarily the content, but on the way they designed the experience.

Danu Poyner:

I guess that's an answer to my next question, which is how do you like to learn and what are some of the best learning experiences you've had personally, I have to echo your experience that doing Quantic is 50% of the reason for that for me was also to just put myself through the experience of a really cool well-designed program. It certainly has lived up to that. Is that your example Quantic or how do you like to learn?

Diego Boada:

Yeah, I think Quantico is a great example. But If I wanted to answer the question in more general terms, I would say, I like to learn by doing, and I think that probably works for most people, because let's say teaching, I went to school to be a teacher, but then when I did my practicum, during my last year of school, I had no idea what to do in the classroom. How do you get these kids to behave and sit down and do what you're supposed to do, but they're supposed to do, I always say that the real influencers are teachers. I know these kids that get famous on social media because not everyone can influence 20, 30, 40 kids to do something. you know? And so I'm I learned by doing things. Even the MBA I'm learning some of the concepts, but I'm sure like if I had to manage a company, I would be like, I don't know what I'm doing. That's why he's great to share with people, like professional development. I learned a lot from all the people. For example, a mentor teacher that would shared strategies with me and coach me, that kind of modern coaching and learning by doing. I work with higher education, I know that they're having a real hard time right now with enrollment next students. Sometimes they don't want to anymore. Some people have talked about the decline of higher education because right now having a degree, doesn't mean anything anymore. You spend thousands of dollars or whatever currency you have, sometimes you have loans and then students go to school, they finished school and they didn't have any practical skills. They get a job. They end up being a server at a restaurant, which is such a great job. Let me go look a little money, but then it's like,

Danu Poyner:

they did their degree.

Diego Boada:

Exactly. So, so, Universities, are going through a transition period and we're thinking in a way what they're supposed to do and how to do it. I personally learned about this university in San Francisco, it's called Minerva university. I really like it because, like a newish university and it's online. But they have cohorts and then they travel around the world and they go to seven different cities. The students, they really learn how to work technology, they know how to have a very strong online presence. They create startup companies, they know how to use LinkedIn. They really know how to move themselves in this digital world. They have 1% admission rate and the education system, I don't know a lot about it, but it's not the traditional thing. It's more about challenges and it's just wonderful. At least on paper, what I've seen and what I've heard about this. And universities, I see there is a little a transformation happening because of the needs of their students. education is becoming too expensive and not necessarily what it used to be in terms of the value that people give to a degree.

Danu Poyner:

Exactly. And as we've both said, a couple of times in this conversation, the user experience, if you want to call it that as, not always, appealing enough to go back to,

Diego Boada:

I just want it to add one thing. And the other thing is that, because now I'm in the industry, I can see how having a degree, like in my case may be, yes, it opened new doors and maybe I wouldn't be where I am if I hadn't gotten my PhD and all of that. But a lot of my coworkers, maybe they didn't go to school or they only have an undergrad or a master's or the most, just because industries don't necessarily value that they don't value degrees, they value experience. And some of the companies like in Silicon valley, for example, they don't even ask for a CV anymore or education, they give you a challenge. Okay, we're looking for engineers, programmers, coders. Here's a challenge. Show me what you can do. And then based on that, we may invite you to a second round of and no CV is required.

Danu Poyner:

Yeah, it is fascinating the way this is going. You're quite an all-rounder and a doer. You work across many constituencies, like you say, language learning, K to 12 adult education, universities tech all over the place. You must have a really interesting perspective on how this educational landscape is evolving. do you see as where things are going and what might happen?

Diego Boada:

I feel like this is a very good time for innovation to happen? Something that you said, you made me realize, when, the way you said it is that I'm really at many different intersections? Which is something that I wasn't looking for, but now in a way I am in the intersection between instructional design and product management, and then give me a lot of perspective, it's fun now I'm working with TESOL which is a n academic conference and then conferences in Silicon valley that are very different. And maybe they don't need to be that different. In the future, my prediction is that we hopefully will be able to bring some of these fields together in a way that is helpful for students and universities. And maybe bring a little bit more of edtech and product management to universities. My supervisor, for example, right now my boss, she was a product manager at a university that is online. And so I can see those intersections really working well together because. they can really benefit from each other's experience and what they do.

Danu Poyner:

Yeah. It really strikes me that that place, where you sit at the intersection of so many things is a huge asset, to you and also to the people and projects that you work on, because it gives you such a perspective also because you are someone clearly whose instinct is to use that knowledge and that understanding to build bridges and to try and make all those worlds connect and bring the best of them to each other, which I think is a really powerful thing. Given all of that. Who do you see yourself as serving primarily?

Diego Boada:

I would say education. in general. Because for me, education has been everything really. I've been like a nerd in some ways, not any more, I guess, more when I was like in, in, high school and K-12 education. But for me, education has been really everything. Like It's helped me to like social mobility, like upwards mobility. I've been able to move up, to help my family to travel, to realize my dreams. Now that I'm learning about business and whatever, and this and that, I know that technology and education are the things. That have the most impact in terms of helping, let's say a developing country to be more successful or just helping society. And, and Sometimes, during the pandemic, I talked to people about what was going on on their roles. For example, during the pandemic, what were the roles that were necessary for people to access? And some other jobs that people have, today's in the case of an apocalypse, maybe you're not that needed, but I think teachers are one of the people that are very important, no matter what. We need them, no matter what. And, There is a reason for that. And so, I do like education, I believe in education as a way to have more social mobility to, like I said, and also like social justice and just improve the quality of life for people. And so I would say that is.

Danu Poyner:

that's a nice answer. I think anyone who had kids at home during the lockdowns and things would certainly agree with the importance of having teachers as

Diego Boada:

Exactly. They didn't know what to do with her kids anymore.

Danu Poyner:

exactly. So is there a learning problem that you're particularly focused on or interested in solving at the moment?

Diego Boada:

I am working on this YouTube projects. And so this idea is evolving but I guess the problem is how to communicate professional development to teachers. How do we engage members that are, spread around the globe and how to bring teachers and academics online, because sometimes, like TESOL for example has 500,000 followers and social media, but then academics and researchers, they're not at that level yet. They're still very much like old school and maybe not necessarily wanting to jump into this digital world. And so I guess facilitating that for academics and old school teachers and old school researchers can be a challenge. I guess that's something that I'm thinking about.

Danu Poyner:

Excellent. That's a good problem to be working on, I think, and a chewy one for sure. clearly got a lot on and you a busy person doing many things. How do you like to fill your cup outside of work?

Diego Boada:

I like to go to the gym. I like to exercise and that's something that I learned. I've always tried to be healthy and whatever, but then in the UAS. To school. There wasn't a lot of things that I could do outside school also because I was an international student and I don't have family here. whatever. So like I went to the gym, that's my escape, I guess. Under the pandemic, we couldn't even at the beginning, leave our homes, do exercise or anything. I felt like I wasn't the same person anymore because there was something about exercise and that really helps your brain and makes you feel happy and accomplished. I can do a thousand things in a day, but if I don't get to workout, I feel like I didn't do anything. And that day I don't feel as accomplished or productive. It just becomes part of your routine or a habit. I liked that and I also like to connect with people in person, these days most of my work is online and remote. So when I get to see someone in real life is like extremely excited.

Danu Poyner:

yeah. True. Thank you. Definitely, the gym seems to be doing something for you. So I keep that up for sure. One thing I ask everyone on the podcast is if you could gift someone a life-changing learning experience, what would it be and why?

Diego Boada:

That question, I love it. Going back to me being an English teacher, working at growth, differing cultures countries, that has really helped me get a better understanding and perspective on problems on people and realize that maybe we're not that different. A life-changing experience for someone, what would it be? I would say, I would want to give people the ability to see the world from a different perspective from the other. We just know what we know, and we didn't know what we didn't know. Working with people across cultures I realized that we're not that different. We are human beings, and so there's something about that. It doesn't matter what language you speak, what you do, what, you know, but then getting to understand each other's perspective, it really helps you see the world in a different perspective. I don't know if it will be empathy or just the power of seeing the world through someone else's eyes.

Danu Poyner:

That goes back to what you were saying right at the start about being and English language teacher and how it was as much about culture and cultural exchange as language. Does that resonate with.

Diego Boada:

Yeah, that's why I say it.

Danu Poyner:

Yeah.

Diego Boada:

a teacher.

Danu Poyner:

That's nice. There's a kind of arc all the way through those things. Diego's been a great pleasure speaking to you today. I think you might be a loss to the medical profession, but you're certainly a great game to many aspects of education. I'm certainly very glad that you're there doing what you're doing and I look forward to following your next steps and seeing what comes from it.

Diego Boada:

Thanks again, Danu for the invitation. And I hope that you podcast will continue to grow and reach many people because it's really interesting. And you are a really great host and you came up with really great questions on you made me realize things that I hadn't necessarily thought before. That's really great. So I'm learning from you as well, like how to be a great host that had to put together a great podcast with great technology. So thanks Danu.